He leapt, sprang, ducked, and tumbled. He was like fire, Ventress like smoke. Just about every different star wars medium has had different writers at one point or another. That was the opinion of the author, and what went into the text. The Jedi leapt down to the third level, and the count followed him. i know that but comics and stuff oversell the power of the force more than movies. There is a clear cut pattern. The damp air muffled the sizzle of lightsabers clashing in deadly earnest. He scuttled backward, still parrying blows from the ground, but the sight gladdened Vos’s heart. If Dooku can reflect it similarly as Mace, he won’t have to reflect it for very long as Palpatine will stop shooting it. We don't separate a character based on who is writing them. Both Mace and Yoda held their own against Sidious, or even won. Their blades hummed together, hissing and sparking. Faster than she had ever seen him move before, even when she had pressed him on Dathomir, Vos twisted, and her blade slid off his. Sidious isn't 'wrecking' anyone. In which he literally stated that Mace would likely kill him. Again, Yoda isn’t trying to kill him, but that doesn’t mean he still isn’t trying to disarm him. He is competent enough to stay alive for a short duration, but not to win. He rained blow after blow, his teeth bared in a snarl, forcing Ventress back down the corridor. Rage amped Maul tanked all of this and was still fully conscious and could form coherent sentences pleading for his mercy. Hell, 20% isn't close. Only, in this instance, it ends with Dooku incapacitating Obi-Wan, rather than mocking his terribly inadequate skills. Not necessarily. -1: Sidious dominated them with TK at the beginning, and let them go. This is not relevant. Here, Sidious will start off Toying with them, he can still annihilate Maul straight away just to see Dooku's reaction. There is no ‘Admiral Enigma.’ Dooku’s been using Vos as a tool to lower Jedi morale!”. It's the most logical explanation imo”, “ I agree with most of the stuff u said about sidious being able to ragdoll maul but bloodlusted maul can still hold his own for a little while in sabers in my opinion”. but Dooku being near Yoda level also puts him near Sidious’s level. He looked like a man who had drawn a winning card in a sabacc game. Ventress. Yes dooku isn't stupid, but he won't be able to use Maul as cover if maul gets ragdolled straigth away lol Sidious isn't stupid either. Even Obi-Wan or Anakin can do that with canon feats included outside just the films. “He’s... manipulating you” came Ventress’s voice, weak but determined. Likely not going to happen. Literally said of course you won't kill me "today" because the guards grabbed him. Also never happened, and that's like pretending Kit losing to Ventress in CD is an anti-feat. You claimed it seemed like Yoda was holding back against Dooku, meaning he didn't really need to get serious. His lightsaber flashes. Stubbornly, using her hate the way she had told Vos to do, she summoned energy to push herself up to a kneeling position, still clutching her lightsaber. The lightsaber is irrelevant, that does not help you defend aginst force lol, and its irrelevant if they where caught of guard he did not just push them he pinned them effortlesly agisnt wall for 5+ seconds( that is very long time for somone as fast as Maul) and both were powerless to break his Tk or even make him struggle slightly despite trying everything to break free, he effortlessly overpowered their combined TK while laughing. The same goes for enraged Maul, who can compete with Sidious in such an amplified state as he is in this thread: Uhh, Obi-Wan could not fight Dooku either, if you recall: Dooku losing to Anakin must have lowered Yoda's opinion of him. You are of the opinion the Sidious needs to get serious quickly, because he will be going in to the battle Toying with them both evenly. ", Fans will be anxious to see Anakin Skywalker, the man who will be Darth Vader, in action. She would not give up. Wrong, when he goes up against Mace he says "Evenif you kill me.......Of course you won't kill me" How exactly have you interpreted that to him being specifically stated to be below Mace? Look, calculating 'lightning' in percentages is already quite ridiculous in it of itself. He desired to fight them just for enjoying the fight. Prior to the opening lightsaber duel in which Dooku meets his demise, the evil master and apprentice are preparing for the arrival of Obi-Wan and Anakin. While Yoda's entire arm is pushed back with some strain, Obi-Wan's lightsaber no-sells the lightning. Obi-Wan, with his lightsaber, blocks Dooku's lightning more easily than Yoda absorbs it with tutaminis. Yours is a wholly unsubstantiated assertion -- nothing in the text indicates that Dooku was badly beaten: They duel for a bit, Quinlan's stylistic edge gives him the upper hand, and Dooku is disarmed. Except the one that counts... Fighting Sidious. Like I said before, any duel longer than 8 seconds is generally a good fight. He struck again, and Vos was forced to back up against the wall, parrying desperately. Everyone is all lumped together -- Vos, Kenobi, Ventress, Dooku, Anakin. This fight is incredibly one-sided, and there's no getting around that. @baylord: I didn't get that impression. Hell, that paragraph doesn't even address the blade lock. well that supports my case imo because a toying sidious isn't going to instantly annihilate maul with the force and bloodlusted Maul has proven himself capable of contending in sabers for a while. Correction, being able to contend absolutely puts you close to Yoda and Mace's level. I view Mace > Dooku and Dooku won’t have the advantages Mace had (Vaapad etc.). With a snap-hiss, Tholme’s lightsaber sprang to life, and Vos charged. While I do think he could break their defenses, I see it not happening as often as you’re suggesting. This is the same Vos that Ventress can keep up with, even when she's holding back: As she drew back to strike again, his hand shot forward and closed on her throat, his fingers digging into warm flesh, lifting her easily into the air and hurling her to the ground. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. “Insolent whelp,” snapped Dooku, parrying Skywalker’s strike. It's true Maul isn't a real threat to Sidious, and it's true Sidious held back, but Maul while amped is good enough to make him work for it, but not push him to his limit. She could only watch helplessly as she slid, headfirst, into the unyielding stone of a meticulously carved bench. He struggled with the urge to simply draw his lightsaber and slaughter the X’Ting. Why would he do that to toy with Dooku? The one where Yoda observes that Dooku's skills have declined to the point where he is no longer a challenge -- proving that Dooku in his prime could give Yoda a run for his money. What evidence are you basing this on? Ventress was flooded by joy so intense that she almost couldn’t breathe. Dooku doesn't win even 1 fight out of 10 against Yoda, Mace, or Sidious. Shattered, Ventress rolled out of the way as he leapt at her, bringing up her blade in a frantic parry as he forced her around the corner. All he needed to do now was to get past the old man’s blade. I think this a lot of our disagreements are due to us just seeing things playing out differently. Doesn't change the fact that Dooku fought and held his own against Yoda in a duel. "Of course, he's the chosen one," whispered Gillard. You claimed it seemed like Yoda was holding back against Dooku, meaning he didn't really need to get serious.". Poll Darth Maul and count Dooku vs palpatine (58 votes) team 43% . That entire segment you sent is literally contradicted by what happens on screen. Thin argument. 0. So... yeah. The only thing I've said is Maul while bloodlusted is good enough to contend with Sidious on an equal basis for a lengthy amount of time, putting him not THAT much below him when it comes to sabers. Again, if someone is a Match for someone, why does he need to run at all? Vos shook his head wildly, but the faintest tendril of doubt had already crept in. “Focus! Poor analogy. Duel in Palpatine's office Palpatine brandishes one of his lightsabers against the Jedi Near the end of the Clone Wars, Palpatine fought against Jedi Masters Mace Windu, Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar using one of the lightsabers. There is no "resorting" to Force Lightning, anymore than Darth Vader or Savage Opress "resorted" to Force Pushes against Eeth Koth and Adi Gallia. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible -- wickedness cut in red light.". "And because i see a clearer gap between Yoda and Sidious than you"And why is that? Again, I respect your opinion, and I’m asking you to respect mine. Ventress paid neither Dooku nor the battle droids any heed. Even as he spoke the words, Ventress realized what a mistake it was. Snarling, Ventress charged at Dooku, reveling in the strength of her muscles as she dealt strike after strike. Proof Sidious only started trying after Maul kicked him? Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Even then, an argument can be made for the fact that he may not be. Vos bellowed, springing back and shoving hard with his left hand. For that we would need to know how far behind he was to Mace and Yoda. He's obviously much more powerful...I mean, he's lightning nearly overwhelms Yoda while yoda casually deflects all of Dooku's lightning. Passive walls are significantly less powerful of a defense than an active defense. The OP states Sidious will be toying and being his usual cocky self to begin with. Smirking at an opponent does not mean one isn’t trying. Anakin was pretty hindered in the mustafar fight, and while Obi Wan was, it likely wasn't to the extent Anakin was. For those reasons, I won’t be replying after this. Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green. Both are top 5 duelist in canon. Im not even sure that Maul is even half a tier above TCW Kenobi let alone ROTS Kenobi. I brought up the lightsaber, to show that neither had an active defense. Prove it. Don't be rediculous. It is intense!". They were so close that Vos could smell the floral scent of wine on Dooku’s breath. He needed it! Dooku can still be close to Yoda while losing every single time. Nonetheless, we don't know whether he used his full power lightning against Mace and he probably isn't going to use lightning against Dooku anyways, unless he gets desperate. The Prequels show how the Jedi exist as peacekeepers who maintain order. In this fight both will be prepared and not caught by surprise. ", Proof Sidious only started trying after the kick. Single against double lightblades. Ah yes, there is so much Maul fanboying involved in pointing out that a massively amped Maul dueled Sidious for a decent stint, traded ground and exchanged blows with him, then narrowly lost the following bladelock. The only case would be Mace Windu. Force walls not tiers. Vos twitched as if stung. Yes, he can break Maul’s wall, but I don’t see Sidious being able to maintain that while fighting Dooku. Still, the difference is Dooku is not fighting seriously against Obi-Wan, I think Sidious was close to that point when Maul was rage amped and got serious after being kicked, which lead to him winning. No it isn't, Sidious dominating Maul and Savage is irrelevant to our discussion. I think we can both agree Dooku is better than Savage in all aspects. His throat was raw from primal cries as he went after Dooku with everything he had. Sidious is good enough to discern a fatal attack from a disarming/dismembering one. I feel like I have done that. Comparing the Difference between Ventress and Dooku to the difference between Dooku and Yoda/Mace saying the difference is similar is completely illogical. That's why he's the apprentice. Perhaps you need to rewatch AOTC. rage-amped maul is literally just going to dive in head first against basically any opponent. So throughout the clone wars series Dooku plans to overthrow Palpatine and trains several apprentices who fail him. Maul was holding two sabers. That isn't close by any measurement. Ventress sailed through the air for several meters, landing hard and awkwardly, and for a wild moment was unable to rise. He is competent enough to contend with them. "It supports My case, and fits with the OPs conditions.". Having them both fighting Sidious will be extremely difficult for him. “Come on!”. When Dooku first set about creating this weapon, he chose a configuration that had no connection to either the weapon wielded by his first tutor, Yoda, nor to the style in fashion at the time. Maul and slightly less than serious Sidious were fighting as equals until the bladelock. “You weren’t there!” She whirled, targeting Kenobi now instead of Vos. We both seem to agree on a lot of things, I just think we see things playing out differently. And they write their material going from their own viewpoint. This isn't canon only. In an intense duel, he killed Savage and toyed with Maul, ultimately deciding not to kill his former apprentice. Whoever wrote this source probably didn't even watch the fight lol. yes he is a peer but yoda is still quite a lot more powerful than him and is better at using the force for defence while windu was amped during his fight with palpatine i think. Dooku would still struggle heavily against lightning that Mace only deflected with lots of difficulty (we don't even know if that was Palpatine's full power lightning) and nearly overwhelmed Yoda's Tutaminus. An actor’s words are meaningless. That screenshot is at most a choreograph error. The nature of how lightning is blocked by lightsabers also exists. Dooku is quite clearly intended to be a relative peer of Mace and Yoda when it comes to duelling. Vos rose in the air and then Dooku shoved, sending the Jedi slamming into one of the pillars. Palpatine would have never continued firing force lightning at Mace (as the reflections were severely hurting him) if he wasn’t trying to convince Anakin to save him. Period. Anakin attacks COUNT DOOKU with a new ferociousness. Hurling senate pods is literally child's play for all 3 of them. If Dooku can reflect it similarly as Mace, he won’t have to reflect it for very long as Palpatine will stop shooting it. This duo is far, far superior to the AOTC one despite the teamwork. Hochwertige Postkarten zum Thema Dooku von unabhängigen Künstlern und Designern aus aller Welt. Remember what I told you!” Ventress didn’t dare be more specific. Does this mean Kenobi and Padawan Anakin is "a match" for Dooku, and close to him in level? Dooku overextended -- only a trifle -- and the next thing Kenobi knew the count’s lightsaber was across the room and the count himself was on his back. Anakin followed him. “She has not taught you your true potential. In an assault on Coruscant, Separatist forces led by Dooku captured Chancellor Palpatine, who was secretly his master. Don't be rediculous. Yoda also attempted to use the force offensively on Palpatine, but wasn't successful. If Sidious tries to attack them both with lightning, he will get overwhelmed by Dooku's half and Maul blocks the other. Parried desperately? How do you know he ran away because of Yoda? If Palpatine can separate the two for longer than a couple seconds, he could very possibly win. Except it wasn't brief, it was a lengthy duel. As far as the Mace vs. Palpatine fight is concerned, it's worth noting that George Lucas said Mace overpowered Palpatine and indicated that Palpatine was really trying to "destroy" Mace. He's better and he knows it, which means he's brash on occasion. Still sending Force lightning with one hand, Dooku reached out with the other. Considering it is not the Jedi way to kill, they aren't exactly going for the throat right away either. Under Yoda's tutelage, Dooku became one of the greatest sword masters the Order had ever produced - eclipsed only by Mace Windu and Yoda himself. When fight starts, Maul's just gonna rush in faster than dooku especially since dooku likely won't just rush sidious since he is more tactical and smarter lol. I responded by showing context and different duels of similar lengthiness. Does that mean he isn’t trying, because if it does than we can discredit plenty of his fights. Then he convinces Grievous to also take their side against the Emperor. Blue and red lightsabers clashed and sizzled. If he puts all of his lightning on Maul, Maul gets overwhelmed but Dooku is free to attack. -- leaping onto the railings and kicking Dooku square in the face with his boot. No but Sidious can still break through it without much trouble, especially if he catches Dooku off guard with a push in the middle of a duel. I'm not saying Maul ~/= Mace, Because Mace was enormously, enormously Vapaad amped, a solid two tiers above Maul at that point. It’s for that reason, I won’t be responding after this post. With their master otherwise occupied on the other side of the bridge, the remaining droids opened fire freely. The Key word is IF.". I also think his force wall wouldn’t be easily broken by Sidious. Obi Wan let go of his hindrances during the fight. “Can you prove Sidious didn't want to end the fight earlier?”. And even he was only BARELY able to do it. Ventress had to reach him, somehow. When fight starts, Maul's just gonna rush in faster than dooku especially since dooku likely won't just rush sidious since he is more tactical and smarter lol. Vos reached for the final layer of darkness that had slumbered inside him until this moment. Matching someone blow for blow for a few seconds is not "a match" for them. ummmm.... What? He will have the fight of his life even if he wins, which is unlikely. They are all way above that at their peak. By Ian Goodwillie Nov 01, 2020. Matching someone blow for blow for any period of time longer than 8 seconds is keeping up with your opponent, putting up a good fight. SMH. What i have explained fits in exactly with the OPs rules, on contrary to your own beliefs. i think sidious has already ragdolled Maul before and he can easily do it again if maul rushes him lol, Yes they are but Sidious has still proven to be able to ragdoll maul. Maul and Savage are no threats for Sidious and the latter held back during all the fight: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/silver2467/blog/darth-sidious-vs-darth-maul-and-savage-opress-what/125235/, “It's true Maul isn't a real threat to Sidious, and it's true Sidious held back, but Maul while amped is good enough to make him work for it, but not push him to his limit.”. Facing each other again, their blades met, clashed, froze..."Cunning, are you," Yoda said, breathing hard. It was Ventress’s turn to seize his arm and hold the scarlet blade at bay. In the same fashion, Vos beating DD Dooku doesn't make him benefit from Dooku's other showings in different mediums, because uniquely, DD Dooku is Ventress/CW Kenobi tier. Six remained. He stood tall, imposing, and as Vos raced toward him, Dooku didn’t flinch. Or maybe he can just slam maul hard into a wall and incapacitate him so he only has to deal with dooku. If you don’t mind, it is extremely late at night where I live. “Don’t listen to him!”. “So,” he mused. Yoda wasn't able to deflect all of the pods back at palpatine though considering he lifted a mountain in a comic he should do that easily. “ Upon arrival, Sidious declared the Sith brothers to be his rivals. Three more droids fell, twitching and sparking. Its completely logical. He slew Kolar, Tinn and Fisto easily, but had an … The Evolution of Anakin VS Dooku Lightsaber Duels - YouTube Being able to stay alive doesn't put you "close" to Yoda or Maces level. Or is this just headcanon like I am presuming? He released it all. well they were equals when yoda didn't attack him...That basically shows they are equals when yoda is holding back so if he isn't holding back he is stronger. Our claims are very different. With that said, I could very well see Dooku reflecting Palpatine’s lightning back at him even with a significant amount of struggle. Padawan Anakin held his own against Dooku for just as long. He is above Mace too, even though Mace won. The fight between him and Anakin was close and constantly shifting. Dooku has demonstrated that he can contend with Yoda, who is factually Sidious' equal, saying that Dooku couldn't hope to do as well as either of them is baseless. Just look at AOTC. So even if he was holding back it was by VERY little. It’s been a pleasure discussing with you. Yes but unlike Dooku, Sidious nearly overwhelmed Yoda with his lightning, while Dooku's attacks got deflected without much difficulty. Again, that's my point. In ihr kämpfen Yoda, Anakin Skywalker und Obi-Wan Kenobi auf Geonosis gegen Dooku. "No no, i'm saying Sidious can and will annihilate Maul straight way which ever way he wants too, to TOY with Dooku.". Yoda is an equal to Sidious. And Yoda seemed like he was holding back, while Sidious has no reason to do that. thanks guys! Maul was panting on the ground after he was disarmed, while Sidious turned his right saber off and placed it within his robe, right before lifting him with TK. This theory suggests that Mace Windu might have been corrupted by power during the Clone Wars. Even if it's somehow true, Palpatine was talking about her skill, ... Let's check what the old canon says about Dooku vs Windu. Simply turn and run? In the heat of combat, you can't just tag someone with the Force at will -- not unless you're considerably superior to your opponent. Dooku konnte ja in Ep 2 auch einigermaßen mit Yoda mithalten, wurde dann aber doch Rrecht deutlich von Anakin in Ep 3 geschlagen. That's just Mace being Mace against Sidious being Sidious. And, yes Maul has been ragdolled twice, but one was him 1v1 with Sidious and the other was him with Savage as a teammate. What statements or evidence do you have to prove that Maul was "noticeably exhausted"? So yes, if you just watch TPM-AOTC, it looks exactly like Anakin is comparable to Dooku, and can keep up for a respectable amount of time, like he did in the movie. I typically only debate to clarify or defend my opinions. Ventress felt a brief flash of amusement as she realized that for the first time, she was actually rooting for Skywalker. Due to his extremely strong defensive force powers and Palpatine constantly unleashing waves of force attacks on him. He can easily use the force to crush maul's head onto the ground or something and knock him out and then he'll only have to deal with dooku. Now it's 1v1. Vos dived and leapt, darted and struck --. The world went white, and she knew nothing more. What's to say something like that's not gonna happen especially when Dooku and maul have way worse teamwork than anakin and Obi-Wan. How do you think he'd be able to escape Yoda or Mace if he was close to them? Doesn't matter though. I do disagree that the other teammate can help his associate regain his defences though. Simple math.. So, I decided to go back to the Empire Strikes Back of throwing things at each other even though I knew they were equals of each other, so it was a hopeless gesture, they would have figured that out in two seconds. Dooku can still be close to Mace or Yoda without being exactly equal to them. AOTC would simply be another one of these instances. ALSO: It’s really late at night where I am so I apologize for any grammar or spelling mistakes. Vos wasn't raised, Dooku was lowered. Maul is gonna get ragdolled and taken out right in the beginning, and then Dooku gets beaten without too much trouble as well lol. Yes... because Dooku on his own isn't as good as Sidious. You can not say the same for Dooku. Doesn't really matter. 7 seconds at first, then another 19 seconds*. I've already said that Palpatine won't be able to abuse his force powers from the get-go, or while being pressed in sabers by Maul and Dooku simultaneously. Base Maul was momentarily incapacitated by a force push like this. Ventress had warned against using it, but why? Simply being defeated and being trounced are not the same thing, do not conflate them. As you can see in the second gif, he already did that, proceeded to slam him into a wall hard enough to crack the stone, and throw him off of it onto the ground as well. There was no desperation there. LoL.". Im not sure what happened to Maul after Sidious betrayed him but lets say Dooku finds Maul and trains him as his apprentice. -2: There is a quote flat out stating Sidious toyed with Maul. I’ve debated with people who simply say what they think helps their argument even if it is completely wrong factually. “You don’t understand,” Ventress cried. He could absolutely still have used other force abilities like force push and force lightning, but either he just didn’t or he knew those wouldn’t easily break Windu’s wall and instead relied on his lightsaber skill. This was a cause for concern within the Jedi Council, as Windu was unable to construct a weapon resembling the lightsaber he saw in his visions. I don't think a healthy rage amped Maul is complete utter fodder to Sidious in the force. From his position he could see down the next corridor. Complete opposite of what he sith are about. Ventress was barely able to activate her own lightsaber and bring it up in time to prevent him from slicing her head off. in shows/movies, that feat was very good and yoda couldn't counter it heck yoda struggled lifting a pillar and x wing. Her short, fair hair was matted with blood, but she held her lightsaber firmly. And again, defending yourself briefly does not equate to matching them. Ventress hit hard, sprawling with an utter lack of her usual controlled grace. This time, it was she who was forced to give ground as he advanced on her, swinging his lightsaber so swiftly it was little more than a green blur. The duel was a stalemate. Only when Palpatine told Anakin to kill him did Dooku realize that he'd been a fool. I could see cases where what you said above happens, and that’s why I don’t think the team wins every time. Ventress realized that he would not stop until he had killed her. It also clearly states he would stop toying if he starts being pressed, why exactly? Same thing with tk basically Sidious hurls so many senate pods at such high speeds that yoda can only dodge while all of the stuff thrown at yoda by dooku is casually deflected. Its not a quantifiable difference. lol. i meant in force powers but he usually holds back against most people. Calmly, Ventress batted back some with her lightsaber; the others she simply redirected using the Force. If he divides 50% of his lightning between both of them, Maul is either going to block it because half of his full power is DEFINITELY within Maul's capacity to block with sabers or he's going to get horribly injured but Sidious is going to lose to Dooku either way. Being able to stay alive doesn't put you "close" to Yoda or Maces level. Er war zwar der auserwählte jedoch hat er sein volles Potential nicht erreicht so würde "The Senat" gewinnen. George Lucas himself stated that the intent behind the film was to show Dooku and Yoda as equals in the force, which even Dooku basically stated himself and Yoda didn't disagree with. Dooku rechnete nicht mit dem Verrat seines Meisters nicht und war überrascht, als dieser in seiner Rolle als Kanzler Palpatine Skywalker befahl, ihn zu töten. This created a very interesting dynamic in which Dooku was fighting against those who were once his closest allies. For a second, Dooku looked alarmed at the renewed attack. It was Dooku's training even moreso than Grievous' cybernatic enhancements that enabled the General to fight the Jedi on even footing with his own collection of stolen Lightsabers, while Ventress grew so powerful that Dooku was eventually forced to betray her on orders from a paranoid Sidious. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. But pretty sure it is n't going to even incapacitate let alone ROTS Kenobi where is your that. 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